But I still think that any discoveries we make by it are miracles of grace alone.

At the same time, I was consistently amazed at the logic of Chesterton’s thought and the startling clarity of his mind.

So I see both your points at work. First, that his culture seemingly contributed elements to his thought that didn’t ultimately have to do with truth. And second, that looking at a thing through the eyes of someone in another place and time can result in a surprise of depth perception.

I hope we weren’t as infected by our 60′s culture and we might have been; but (as said above) it is hard to know exactly.

But I think we need to know. The outbreak of greed and materialism from our generation caused untold misery for many; we need to examine ourselves lest we abuse others out of our own cultural blindness.

Always love your comments.

Sam

First, see my response to Marion.

Second, I think we need to examine ours beliefs constantly, to see if they are in line with the gospel. Yes, God will occasionally “provide” an earthquake, but I also think that he wants to participate with us in the interior examination.

Paul says in Romans 7 that he was the perfect law follower, until he studied the last commandment (Don’t covet), and it “slew” him. I’m sure this studying was done with the help of the Holy Spirit, but it was also done with self examination.

The first commandments are mostly behavioral (Don’t murder, commit adultery, bow down to idols, etc.). It was easy for Paul to say, “Nope, never did that.” But he comes to Coveting, and it is internal, it is an attitude of the heart; he let the commandment examine him, and it slew him.

That is what I’m looking for. Examination in light of scripture and past Christian writers.

I like ecumenism. I can learn from other Christian traditions. But I think the ultimate ecumenism is not denominational but generational. What can I learn from past Christians who had the Holy Spirit and heard the Lord? They probably have more to say to me than other denominations who are also under the same cultural cloud that I live in.

Sam

Thanks for engaging in this discussion.

I understand and share your suggestion that it is very difficult to understand culture’s influence on us … because we are immersed in our culture. We sometimes see things in culture that we don’t share; but it is hard to see how we have been influenced.

Hard, but I don’t think impossible. When scripture commands us not to be conformed but be transformed by the renewing of our mind, it is telling us to do the very thing that seems so hard.

My first job out of University was overseas. I lived in London and traveled extensively throughout Europe. As I made friends, they often told me of their stereotype of a typical American: loud, insensitive, TOO sensitive, insincere smiles (“Have a nice day”), materialistic, etc.

After two years, I returned to the States. When I looked around, Americans seemed loud, insensitive, TOO sensitive, etc.

Someone once said, the best way to understand your culture is to see it from the perspective of another. That’s what happened to me.

I think the best way for us 21st century Christians to see how we are influenced by our culture is to see it from another culture. That is why it is so important to read past Christian writers. It is helpful to see the world from their perspective, to see their solutions to unhappiness, discouragement, sin, self-esteem, feelings, etc.

I’ve been trying to read older books recently. These include; Chesterton–Orthodoxy, Chambers–My Utmost for His Highest, Lewis (lots), Dorothy Sayers–Mind of the Maker, Jonathan Edwards (hard to read, but really good), Calvin (Institutes), Bonhoeffer (just a biography with numerous quotes), Brother Lawrence (Practice Presence of God), and a bit of Augustine (again, hard). (Of course … scripture!)

I really think we can read these kind of books and let them examine us. It can be amazing.

Sam

Thanks for your response. I certainly know about the pot calling the kettle black. I’m guilty of that all the time.

Just call me the kettle this time.

Sam

Meanwhile, “time just keeps movin’ on.”

Paradigm shifts don’t happen without interior earthquakes. In order to see what I cannot see, I must have a Damascus Road experience — either sudden or gradual. In fact, I think Saul/Paul offers an instructive example. He was standing up for righteousness as revealed by God through Moses, for heaven’s sake! It hurt him to kick against the goad, but he was willing to bear it. There was simply no way for him to see that he was actually fighting against God…unless the genuine service of God was his real motivation. Because it’s my opinion that even being knocked down and blinded by Jesus himself wouldn’t have done it if God weren’t fundamentally more important to him than his view of God.

So this is what I pray for: that I will never forget that God is always different than I think, that I will always hold my convictions open-handed in his light, and that he will shake what can be shaken so that what cannot be shaken may emerge.

Still, I think it is far from useless that people are able to spot inconsistencies in others. So I also pray to — graciously and lovingly — play whatever role God has for me in shaking up the Church.

I am envious of you who are able to articulate my sentiments so well! I had to laugh at Sam’s response ( first sentence) to David’s comments. I am critical of one of the men in my men’s group who is always threatening to change churches because it is not “meeting his need”, but he, in fact, rarely attends, and only lives a 5 minute walk away from our church. However, though I do not voice my own thoughts of leaving at times, I suppose I am the pot calling the kettle black because I will sometimes get frustrated with changes our senior pastor makes, when I should be more patient and rely on God.

Sam, you make great points. The world, in my eyes, is currently upside down, particularly with the apparent acceptance of homosexuality. After reading today’s blog, I will “…hide Your Word in my heart, that I may not sin against Thee.”, out of a deep fear that I may begin to see homosexuality in a more favorable light. God’s Word is clear. He is my rock, and on top of that rock I will remain firm. Prayer required.
Jeff

The irony is that we WILL get “something out of it” when we truly worship God. But when we aim “to get something out of it” we rarely do. Most Christian denominations have a belief that says the purpose of humanity is “to glory God and enjoy him forever.” The thing is, if we aim for that enjoyment, we’ll get nothing. If we aim to glorify God, we get enjoyment thrown in.

It’s like many other truths. If we primary aim to make ourselves happy, we usually fail. When we aim to bring joy to others, we find we get joy as well.

Thanks

That’s a great quote. Thanks.

I like the fact Schaefer uses the word, “adopted.” That’s what we do. We see something we like and make it our own. In this case, as the answers of Christianity were hidden or lost, people “adopted” the answers from the society around them. That society said, “If you want real life, all you need is personal peace or affluence.”

It didn’t work then (1500 years ago) and it certainly doesn’t work now. Our culture has taken the prescription of personal peace an affluence, and where has it gotten us? Increased depression, increased self-absorption, increased cynicism, and loss of real LIFE.

I think there is a better solution!

The other thing I can think of is my ‘me centered’ view of religion. If I’m not getting anything out of my prayer, my worship, or my service, then I get grumpy, or even worse, I question whether those things are worth my time. I want results! I want to feel better after my prayer time! But is that the ultimate point of prayer, worship, or service? I don’t know. I’ve been reading a couple books that quote from ancient authors, and they all seem to agree that the point of prayer, worship, or service has very little to do with making the person who prays/worships/serves feel happy or self fulfilled.

And yet that’s how I approach life–unless I really make an effort–which according to the first point, doesn’t happen as often as it probably should.

Awesome reminder. Thanks for this.

I remember getting into Francis Schaefer’s writings about a decade ago. I took the time to write out some of his quotes to meditate on & challenge myself.

Here is something he wrote concerning the Roman culture…

“As the more Christian-dominated consensus weakened, the majority of people adopted two impoverished values: personal peace and affluence.

Personal peace means just to be let alone, not to be troubled by the troubles of other people, whether across the world or across the city–to live one’s life with minimal possibilities of being personally disturbed. Personal peace means wanting to have my personal life pattern undisturbed in my lifetime, regardless of what the result will be in the lifetimes of my children and grandchildren. Affluence means an overwhelming and ever-increasing prosperity–a life made up of things, things, and more things–a success judged by an ever-higher level of material abundance.”

- Francis Schaefer, How Should We Then Live?, pp 205